[00:00:07] Speaker A: Hi and welcome to the latest edition of the Sky Careers podcast.
Today, I'm very excited to, to be interviewing a gentleman called Ian Guy. The best thing about Ian, he's a fellow, he's a fellow Brit. So that's always, that's always a good thing.
And Ian is an expert in airport development and he now runs his own consultancy in that area. I'll get Ian to explain exactly what that means, but I know it's gonna be far ranging, I know it's gonna be interesting and I'm gonna know it's gonna be a fascinating conversation. So, Ian, welcome to the Sky Careers podcast.
[00:00:45] Speaker B: Thank you, Mark. It's good to be with you and the other people listening to Sky Careers. I think it's an excellent career choice for anybody, so it's good to be with you.
[00:00:56] Speaker A: Brilliant. Well, you've answered the final question first. So Ian, tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into aviation.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: So as you pointed out, originally from the UK and back when I was at university studying civil engineering, I got a summer job working on a construction project that happened to be at Heathrow Airport.
And during that work I saw a Land Rover going up and down the airfield with airfield civil engineer up on the, on the roof.
And I thought, you know, that looks more interesting than what I'm doing on this construction site.
So I investigated it more, found out sort of what, what there was in engineering on airports.
Got a placement in Dresden through first six months as part of my university degree.
And then a few years after I graduated, I was lucky enough to join baa, what used to be known as the British Airports Authority, to work at Heathrow on the Terminal 5 development, which was a landmark development for the industry and in Europe at the time.
And that really opened up my 25 year career in developing airports all over the planet.
[00:02:21] Speaker A: Wow, sounds fascinating. When you, when you say developing airports, what, what does that mean is, is that a greenfield site that doesn't have an airport and then we need to build one, or is it, is it, you know, expansion and modernization or.
[00:02:37] Speaker B: Yeah, all of the above. I think, you know, greenfield airports are, are a bit sort of the, the holy grail for those of us who do what I do, because you've got to a blank sheet of paper to work on. But most airports exist and so it's generally around expanding them, modifying them, changing them, usually to accommodate more passengers, more aircraft, larger aircraft, perhaps a shift of an airport from being domestic only to international change in regulatory standards leading to modifications in a building or on an airfield, but generally it's to do with handling ever increasing number of people who, who want to fly around the planet.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: Fantastic. So you mentioned going back to sort of the education and what kind of skills you, you, you, you need in your role. I think you said you had a, an engineering background, but how did you add to that? Or did you need to add to that to create sort of aviation specific.
[00:03:45] Speaker B: I mean my. Yeah, my civil engineering degree was an entry point.
There are many other ways of getting into sort of the airport planning side and the development side of airports. People I work with come from all sorts of backgrounds, but for me, my civil engineering provided the entry point. At the time, BAA wanted to hire recently graduated people with relevant engineering degrees to come and work on the client side team for Terminal 5. So the fact I had a civil engineering degree was that base requirement to open the door on the interview.
But I've never really used the core of my civil engineering.
It taught me how to read drawings, it taught me some of the important principles that are still used today. But I've never been, you know, a structural engineer designing something or you know, doing design calculations for the strength of aircraft pavements.
I understand a lot about that these days, but it's never been a core, core skill.
I think the gateway into airport development is something that can be quite personal to each person who gets into it. So I've worked with and for people with civil engineering degrees, with business degrees, with MBAs, with degrees in aviation management, architects who have all, at various points in their life or career, decided that airports are the best things in the world to work on and have used their skills from their educational background to now work on development of airports.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: Yeah. So one thing that I think I'm sensing through that is it's a big team effort. And I know one of the things that across the Sky Careers conversations that I've had, both the podcast and interviewing a whole load of young female aviation professionals for our Sky Careers videos, is the one. I think people, I know that it really. People love the, the teamwork that you can't do these things on your own and they're very multi, multidisciplinary. Is that the case? Is that the same for you?
[00:06:18] Speaker B: Absolutely.
I think that's one of the great things about the industry. I mean, it's all about connecting people, traveling, as I said, across the planet and actually those connections within the teams that you're working with. Different disciplines, different skill sets, and then the different backgrounds of all the people you're working with.
If you look at the people you get to work with here in Australia.
An awful lot of us that you and I included, are not native Australians.
And people have come from all sorts of backgrounds.
And the common thread often in aviation is just a love of working on airports near the planes with the buzz of the industry.
But it really is all about the individuals and the connections you make. To some extent, the technical challenges of the airports become secondary on a really good project because it's just fun doing the work with, with lots of different people.
[00:07:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I was going to pick up on that. And you and I have met just a couple of times now. But I think one of the things that shines through, I can, you know, I can sense your enthusiasm and your passion for working in airport development in aviation generally. And it's something I say as I come across and speak with a whole load of aviation professionals.
It's a very common thing. People really are passionate about this. They don't sort of roll around. Oh, this is just something I do. They really, they really, they really love, love doing it.
I'll flip the question a little bit. What's the worst job you've done in your career as a, as an airport development?
[00:08:03] Speaker B: The worst, the worst job on my, in my aviation work.
Do you know, that's a, that's a really difficult one to, to pick if I look back at the roles and the projects that I've done, even difficult.
[00:08:27] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a different way of thinking about it.
[00:08:29] Speaker B: I did, I spent a year working at Gatwick Airport and in that role, the majority of the role I was a project manager, really a leader of a team of project managers, but project managing some of my own projects.
And that was a bit later for some of those projects in the design process. So much more about just leading the on site delivery. I probably enjoyed that role the least, but that's linked to my skill sets and what I enjoy doing. There are people who have spent years doing that exact job and love it. Really get out of bed for it. I think just picking up on your point about the, the sort of, the infection that people get for it, there's a, I don't know if anybody else has mentioned her, but you know, a bit of a joke in the industry about, you know, the, once you smell the, the Jet A1 aviation fuel, you know, it sort of gets into your veins and that's, that's you hooked.
I mean personally I've, you know, I've got, you know, the. Obviously, you know, there's the map of Heathrow behind me. And you know, if you could look the camera, look the other way, you'd see a number of model aircraft.
The aircraft for me are secondary.
They're part of the technical challenge on the airports. But you know, I'm not somebody who can tell you the cruising speed and the difference in performance characteristics between different aircraft once they get on the ground at the airport. I can tell you about the issues about parking them and the issues about passengers coming off them and how many people they might have on board and that sort of thing.
The actual aircraft itself is not what interests me.
It's that complex mini city that airports are.
You talk about those different disciplines.
Most airports, they're almost complete cities in their own right. Some have their own power generation, their own sewage treatment plants, there's hotels.
The only thing you don't have in most airports is some residential housing. But everything else in a city you can end up having bus interchanges, rail, you've got all of the drainage issues, the utilities, everything.
So really if you've got an interest in any particular discipline, you can always add to it by applying it in an airport context. So if you're into it, well then understand how the amazing world of integrated airport it works.
If you're into modal split and how people travel around on the ground, not even in the planes, you know, then, you know, get involved in the landslide operations of airports, you know, and work out how to make busing and rail access to airports better.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, it's, it's, it's fat. I mean, when you say mini city, I think that's a, that's a lovely way of putting it. I mean it's an ecosystem, isn't it? And I think, I think, I think we, last we spoke, you talk about baggage handling and stuff and you know, it's, everything's got to be coordinated, isn't it? And when, when, when things don't quite work and I guess we've, we've seen something, don't we, when baggage conveyors break down or, or a flight's late or a flight stuck at a gate. I mean it has all these roll on effects, doesn't it? And, and, and I guess mitigating for those, and planning for those in the first instance, you know, it must, must be a real, really, really satisfying challenge to, to, to solve at least when you get it right.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm doing a piece of work now for a client that I can't name unfortunately, but they're looking at a major upgrade to their airport and one of the things we're looking at at the moment is what are all the things that are going to go into that upgrade? And yesterday I was working on a list for them basically of all the components that are ultimately going to need to be designed.
The list is currently sitting at about 170 lines in a spreadsheet.
So you know, you talk about, you know, multidisciplinary, different skills, different people who are going to be involved.
You know, it's, there's not many projects that you can start to look at where, yeah, there's 170 different aspects that need to be designed.
[00:13:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And you've been doing this for quite a few years now. What are the biggest changes you think you've seen in and around the area of airport development?
[00:13:15] Speaker B: The increased technology use. So self service, check in, mobile, check in, scanning your passports, E gates.
So that's probably the biggest passenger facing change. The industry went through a big change to accommodate the A380 coming in at larger airports around the world.
And obviously now no more of them are being built. So that's an interesting cycle that's occurred. It's interesting.
Things are always changing but somehow staying very still. If you think about it, the process of arriving at an airport through to getting onto of the plane really hasn't changed much over the years. It's little elements of it and it's the cumulative effect of all those little elements that lead to a lot of these development challenges.
The shift in aircraft types I think is going to create a change. So you know, narrow body jets being able to go further and opening up new routes between different destinations I think will be interesting how that evolves.
And the whole issue of alternative fuels will be fascinating how the industry grapples with, with that, that it's a whole other set of disciplines to add to that list of 170. Right. To, to address how that comes through.
Yeah, it's interesting.
It's constantly evolving but it tends to be lots of incremental pieces and that's the challenge.
Part of the challenge between different airports, different countries is people are at different stages on that journey. You know, some people are still on their first generation of E gates for passports and some countries are onto their third or fourth. And you know, they're up to, you know, Singapore's now, you know, essentially 100% self entry into the country, scan your passport, the gate opens.
And some countries are still debating activating that for outbound, for their own citizens.
So the, the differences between places can be fascinating in their own right.
[00:15:46] Speaker A: It's, I mean, I'll just pick up a couple of things there. I mean you talk about the narrow bodied long haul. I, I flew to Perth on Sunday night, narrow bodied and it was, you know, it jammed in. I didn't, I did. It was five and a half hours. I wouldn't like any further than that. Thank you very much. Although I understand there are different configurations but, but yeah, Virgin Australia, we didn't love you for that. That was, that was, that wasn't the best light in the world.
But the, and the other thing is that, that it's interesting even for example, I think I flew, I can't which way it was. I flew out of one Qantas terminal to another Qantas terminal and going out it was like, you know that the secure airport security, it was leave your laptops in the bag, don't take your laptops out. And then, oh, that's good, that's great. That says we haven't taken laptop out. And then you go to the other end or you coming back the other way, you go, oh yeah, you take your laptops out.
It's with the same carrier on the other return, the return leg of the same trip. And it just. That lack of joined up consistency and that's with a developed, very developed, obviously.
[00:16:51] Speaker B: Aviation market, the passenger perception of things like that is a fascinating side of it, you know, and that the whole issue of, well, if you are asked, you know, you know, in the development context, if you're asking people to take their laptops out, how much extra time does that take for them to get themselves ready to go through security?
How many extra trays are going through the X ray machine?
How much extra processing time is that taking and introducing the new technology changes that changes the dynamic of the queue and the processing time and hence what it means for the airport. So it's interesting as a passenger, you experience that differential and that stress point. From an airport development point of view, it's a very different set of questions.
And the constant moving target of security regulations is one of the challenging areas for all airports and anybody involved in airport development.
It's definitely trying to hit a moving target at times.
[00:17:57] Speaker A: There's a man who's had his Marmite confiscated at Heathrow for forgetting to check it in.
I can vouch for that. Ian, tell me at a high level, what are the kind of skills do you think that people need to come into sort of the area you're working in?
There's two.
[00:18:20] Speaker B: If you talk about airport development and the core of it Being a discipline we call airport planning. The airport planners tend to fall into two distinct types in my experience. There's ones that are more highly numerate and interested in understanding how the metrics of an airport influence its design and then those that are more interested in the, almost the architectural side of it, so the flow and everything else. And to be honest, if you've got half an aptitude in either and are willing to lift your skill in the other, then that's your perfect blend in airport planning is it's a real mixture of art and science to some extent. So if you think about engineers are checking very detailed calculations and metrics, well, we have a lot of that in airport planning, but a number of those need some quite softer inputs and assumptions making. So you're into judgment calls and a discussion and an assessment of passenger behavior.
So you tend to find it's people who have, you know, good, good numeracy skills and an interest in applying that. Nowadays it's, you know, how do you apply it through the right software analysis tools, even if it's just Excel. Right. But how do you apply that numeracy skills and those that are then interested in the softer side and can bring that together and write it. So at the end of the day, core maths, core English writing skills, fundamental.
And then you can learn all the rest of it, depending on what interests you.
[00:20:11] Speaker A: Yeah, it's great because as you said at the end of the day, I was talking to someone about this the other day. I mean, one view of aviation is it's, it's just, it's, you know, at airports it's logistics with wings on. Right. Logistics that fly.
But there's also still that slight romance, excitement, expectation around flying.
And you know, I gave that example of my customer experience of, you know, frustration with laptops in, laptop, laptops out.
But there is a little bit, there's a little. We got to design the experience. You've got the duty free, you've got the shopping, it's. And we're going on an adventure, we're going on a journey, whether it's for work or social or, or pleasure. And there is, there is that you can't just design the ultimately utilitarianly efficient system. You've also got to overlay that with an, with it. With a, with an experience. Well, I suppose with the exception of someone like the real budget carriers like Ryanair in the. Out of the. Out of Ireland and the uk where it's absolutely zero, zero frills and massive. But it gets you, it Physically gets you where you need to get to arguably the lowest cost. But the experience is pretty, pretty average.
Yes.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: And I think it's the differential between the on the ground experience and in the air. Right. Or the experience that is provided by or influenced by the airline versus the airport.
So that's one of the tension points quite often in development. If you have an extreme low cost view of life, they, they'd be quite happy for the passenger, to some extent, wait in a bus shelter before walking out onto the plane if that enabled them to sell the tickets even cheaper.
But the airport wants to and needs to, to some extent, keep the passenger safe, secure, you know, warm or cool, depending on the climate you're operating in, and provide them that, that experience around it.
And it's a, it's a, it's an interesting conflict. And it changes by airline, by country, by market, within the country.
So, you know, what facilities do you expect at an airport?
You know, the old one that used to quote in Europe, you know, people wanted people expected at the UK airports to, when going on their summer holiday to go down an air bridge and walk onto the plane. When they get off the plane at the other end in the sunshine, they're very happy to either walk or get a bus, because that's okay. You're in the holiday destination, you're not at home.
And that service expectation is constantly evolving and does vary by the airline you're traveling with and the class of travel.
[00:23:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Fascinating.
A couple more questions and I'm sure, I'm sure we're gonna, I'm sure we're gonna have you guesting again when going a bit more depth on some of these things. But a couple more questions because your passion shines through.
What do you do when you're not at work, Ian? You're building model airplanes, but I think you're doing some more. More than that.
[00:23:39] Speaker B: Not at work is. It's an interesting concept these days with a lot of work from home, but. And clients in different time zones. You know, work from home is in. Enjoying getting out, getting out and about with, with the two dogs that we have in the, in the family and, you know, generally dealing with the other, the other challenges of life. But it's quite funny how, you know, well, there's always a plane overhead. Right. So you get to, you get to see it out there. Yes.
And as you say, once people know that you work in the industry. Sorry, once people sort of know you work in the industry, people ask questions around. Well, why did I have to take my laptop out at that airport and not this airport. So you find somehow the professional bleeds into the private sometimes.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: So you're like a doctor when you go to parties. You don't tell someone you're a doctor or oh, I've got a bad elbow. What do you.
[00:24:41] Speaker B: There's, there is a bit of that. Yes. Of people will tell you about the last bad or good trip. Yes.
[00:24:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
Which, which I guess flows back through to the early obvious. You know, there we, we have a, we have a, I think a, I don't know, it's a romanticized view, but we certainly, we certainly have a different view, I think most of us about air travel than we do getting a train or getting a bus or driving some. There is an, there's some higher expectation at some level, isn't it? It should be more of an experience in verdict commas than other modes. And I guess the challenge is to actually square that circle because you obviously got a, you can create an amazing experience, as you say, but if everyone flew first class, amazing. But most of us can't afford to do that. So you've got to offer a certain level of experience and integrate the, the airport experience with the, with the airline experience. And those are, those are completely different entities and profit centers and all the rest of it. So marrying all that up is a hell of a challenge, isn't it?
Yeah.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: And it's also your definition of what's good in that experience. So a decade or so ago I was doing a lot of work on one particular airport that at the time had a reputation for being one of the worst in the world, but at the, and not undeservedly for some aspects of its operation.
But I could reliably at the time, I was traveling through it every week for about three months.
From the, from the front door getting out of the taxi to sitting at the gate could be done pretty reliably in 15 to 20 minutes.
So in check in, drop bag through passport security, buy a snack, sit at the gate 15, 20 minutes. Now that's not a bad airport experience in terms of a journey time. It's very reliable.
But if I'd been there at another time of day, very different experience going through it about peak and off peak, but, but the wrapper around it in the airport, you know, dirty toilets, poor wayfinding, you know, not a good retail selection for that snack you want to buy nowhere to pick up a last minute present that you've forgotten.
Uncomfortable seats, now that's all the stuff that gets it. The worst airport in the world ranking. But from a process point of view, actually at the right time of day, nothing wrong with it at all.
And so that, that experience, you know, what, what's, what's the measure of experience varies, you know, by, by person, by culture.
And so, you know, defining that and getting it right is, it's part of the fun of the job really.
[00:27:45] Speaker A: And as you say, and also the expectation because most consumers, they want a luxury experience for a budget price. And you reminded me, I remember I mentioned Ryanair earlier.
I remember this would be probably two couple of years ago when there were a lot of flying out of the uk. There were a lot of massive delays. I think it was a post Covid rush and all the airports were, Gatwick, Heathrow, they were all inverted commas breaking down, massive delays and cancellations and you got to the point where everyone was leaving, getting to the airport three or four hours earlier and it was just. Yeah, which probably compounding the problem. But I remember we flew, we got a train to Stansted and we were, we were, we were literally, you know, we were literally like cattle class. We were pushed through, do this, shout it out, stand there, put the tray up, go faster.
And it was a, it was a, you know, it was, it was certainly. There was no, it wasn't a luxurious experience or, or it wasn't disrespectful. Yeah, but it was kind of, you just felt, you felt very processed as it were. But hey, it was efficient and you know, and, and, and, and I think we were pretty much on time, which given all the noise around, it was actually. And ultimately the end of the day. Yes, you, you, you want, you want the last minute present, you want the comfortable seats, you want the great snacks. And in a perfect world, but the thing you want the most is to take off and land roughly on time. So you can, you can do whatever the, the next thing is you're, you're looking to do, don't you, don't you?
[00:29:12] Speaker B: Yes, the, you know, the, I mean the fundamental in the industry, you know, is, is safety, you know, non negotiable so safety. Which now also equates to that security piece.
And after that it is, yeah, it's pretty much the punctuality and reliability.
The, you can debate the order of many of the other factors and they change.
But I mean you pick up an interesting point there around that post Covid travel challenge that was all over the world and I think it's very pertinent to sort of this topic of careers is fundamentally post Covid, the industry just didn't have enough people in it ready to start up again at all levels.
And that a number of people have left the industry because of COVID And so there's the, you know, this myriad of career paths that's there in the industry.
All took.
All took a bit of a shock through Covid, you know, as many other bits of society did.
And it's still an area where the industry is recovering. And that's why things like this that show people what a range of jobs that are out there are so important, because there's an ongoing need for new people to come into the industry.
[00:30:43] Speaker A: Fantastic. You're doing a great. You're doing a better job than I am of keeping us on track here.
That's fabulous. And as you said, from a Sky careers perspective, we hear this again and again. There's a real demand, there's an information and a knowledge gap from school leavers and other people about with a vast range of roles. Not just sort of pilot or defense or cabin crew. There's a vast range and obviously you touched on one, but there's so many other roles.
Many of them don't require degrees, many of them are on the job learning.
Most of them, it's about turn up with the right attitude and, you know, be keen, be on time, ask questions, be curious. And it's, you know, we've heard time and time again how people can develop their careers and end up in amazing places and exciting places and move around within it.
[00:31:40] Speaker B: You know, there are people today who are running airports, who started off on the maintenance side of airlines.
There are, you know, I've come across people in my career back in the UK who started work as, you know, secretaries or on the reception desk and ended up as very senior people within the airport management structure.
So it's, you know, it's about the skills you've got, but it's also about your attitude and willingness to.
To give and grow within the industry.
[00:32:19] Speaker A: Yeah, fantastic. Well, you've half answers on the final question. Is this. What would you say to anyone, school leavers and other people, maybe career changers who are thinking about or maybe thinking about any kind of role in aviation? What advice would you give them?
[00:32:38] Speaker B: I would say look at what you enjoy in the industry. Don't get fixated on one particular aspect. You know, a lot of people, you know, want to be an air traffic controller or a pilot and some of these, they're very niche jobs and quite difficult. Some of them are quite difficult to get into. Let's be honest or think about what are the skills? Why do you want to do that job? What are the skills that you're wanting to use? And then just have a look around the rest of these mini cities and see where else you could use them.
And then just go knock on doors, do your research and ask around.
There are many, so many ways in job adverts are obviously one way, but actually, you know, find some, find some people who love the industry and get them to see what's out there for you.
Brilliant.
[00:33:40] Speaker A: Hey, Ian, thank, thank you so much. It's been a fascinating conversation. I'm sure we'll have you back and, and go into more depth on so many as I. This is what any, any, any baggage control, you know, technology, passenger expectations, catering. There's so many areas that we can go off in and have a separate conversation, but for now, that's been absolutely fabulous. Thank you so much for being a guest on the Sky Careers podcast.
[00:34:06] Speaker B: No, thank you for having me on, Mark. Cheers.
[00:34:16] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to the Sky Careers Podcast. If today's conversation has sparked your interest in aviation, then head over to our
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Whether you dream of flying aircraft or you're curious about the hundreds of other exciting roles that keep the aviation industry moving, Sky Careers is your gateway to discovering these opportunities.
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