[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Okay. Welcome to part two of my interview with my brother, Carl Hodgson.
In part one he told us about his, his pathway from grammar school in London in Kent through having exposure to aviation through the air cadets and then moving into the Royal Air Force.
And then he shared about his 20 year career going through flying training and ultimately flying multi, multi engine aircraft, culminating in his love of flying the, the Hercules, including a couple of years flying in anger as it were, in Afghanistan.
So moving on. Carl, thank you again for your time.
You left us in part one we talked about how you, the last two years of the tactical flying and the operational flying in, in Afghanistan was from an operational and a flying perspective, amazing. But you had other calls on your time and your attention and your life from your, from your, from, from your kids and home was calling and so, and you mentioned you started to do some cross training on your way across to civilian aviation. So tell us a little bit more about that if you would. And welcome back.
[00:01:35] Speaker A: Oh, hello.
So when I did the, it started way back actually because when I did the, the HS125 it was, it was, it was a. We actually went through a civilian training course and so I managed to pick up a couple of relevant civilian qualifications way back then. And then on the Domini I did a few more, a couple of exams and turned that all into a commercial pilot's license, a cpl.
I also did an instrument rating then. So I then had a CPL commercial pilot's license with an instrument rating towards the end.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Sorry, you did you say you did all this while still in the military? Is that what you said?
[00:02:19] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. So that, that was ticking along anyway. And then when I was on the Hercules sort of, you know, creating options and knowing that I, I probably would be leaving the Air Force, I then did some further examiner or training courses and examinations at Bristol Ground School down in the south.
And that added some more qualifications that then turned my, my hours and my academic qualifications into the air transport pilot's license.
[00:02:57] Speaker B: So that you say you effectively have to convert the military hours into. Yeah, sorry have to go through certain processes examination to reclassify your military hours into civilian hours that are considered.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: Well, I mean the hours were all relevant because I was on a large multi engined airplane.
So it was more to do with the academic side of things. I had to do various, a learning course to, to pass Civil Aviation Authority examinations to, to qualify to, to get the atpl.
[00:03:37] Speaker B: How weird was that, Carl? From. I guess it must be like. Is it, was it a bit like taking your Drive. I remember when I first came to Australia in, in late 1999, both my wife and I, Nikki, we had to take our driving licenses again. So we had, we had, so we had to driving. So we had to run a driving test in, you know, at the age of 35 or something, having been driving for, for almost 20 years. Was it similar to that?
[00:04:04] Speaker A: Well, it, not really because it was, it was all, it was all theory.
It, it was, I mean there was some similarities in the flying, the instrument rating test we had to do in the military and the instrument rating test you have to do in the, in, in the civilian, in civilian world, I guess because you're still going to fly in the same airspace whether you're civilian or military.
So. But the actual academics, it was, it was, I'll tell you what, it, what amused me. I had to do what was called the navigation group exams. And to me it was, it was, it was navigators revenge.
So the Civil Aviation Authority who set these exams, a lot of them were retired military navigators.
And effectively it was us having to learn all the stuff they had to learn when they went through navigation training.
So yeah, it was map projections, it was plotting NDB fixes, it was stuff that didn't seem particularly relevant at the time. So anyway, you had to do it. They were hoops you had to jump through in order to get the golden ticket. And that's what I did.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: And so what, what, how, when did you finally leave the Air Force and how did you find your way into civil civilian aviation?
[00:05:24] Speaker A: So in the.
I had, I had a couple of false starts.
I started applying for civilian airline jobs in 2001, which wasn't a good year.
So basically I successfully completed selection for British Airways about the. Unfortunately on September 13th.
And so everything went on hold a little bit then. But eventually at the beginning of 2002, I ended up successfully being accepted for a position with Virgin Atlantic.
And I started with Virgin Atlantic on the 3rd of March.
In fact, 3rd of March 2003 was when I started the course.
[00:06:21] Speaker B: Well, so almost a whole year.
[00:06:25] Speaker A: I think I got the year wrong. It was the end of 2002. That's right. So 2003. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: Cool, cool, cool. So that, where did that, where did that take you? What did that, what did that, what was that? What was the role and what did it feel like?
[00:06:40] Speaker A: Well, it was interesting.
That was probably one of the biggest sort of quantum leaps of change because the Hercules was, I mean, the Hercules was conceived in the 50s and the version we had was mainly roundabout in the 60s, 1960s.
And so I was learning to fly an A340 300, which I believe was a 1980s, 90s sort of airplane.
And yeah, Airbus A340 300 and everything is automated. So the Hercules was all push and pull and springs and bells and whistles and the Airbus was all pressing buttons and programming computers. And so it was a big shock in terms of how you fly an airplane a little bit differently.
The good thing was that I had to go down to Toulouse and actually do the course with Airbus with the cheese and the red wine and all that stuff as well and a bit of nice state. But yeah, so I went down to Toulouse, they taught me how to fly the A340 300 and then we had to come back to, to Virgin Atlantic and do more training sectors and simulators, et cetera, until we fulfilled all their bits and pieces and that was it. And then you're off on the line and flying in the right hand seat of a 340 300, which was great.
And we actually.
[00:08:21] Speaker B: Sorry, is that when you get, do you get your wings again? Effectively?
[00:08:24] Speaker A: No, Well, I guess you get virgin wings, but sort of, yeah, yeah.
And the good thing was the 343, the Airbus fleet then was the, was if you like, the premium fleet. We went to all the cosmopolitan cities of Hong Kong, Shanghai, Tokyo, Johannesburg, Los Angeles, San Francisco. Basically the 340300 did all the peachy places. So it was a great fleet to be on.
And then a few years later we acquired the 340600 which was almost 100 tons heavier, but we could fly under the same qualification, which went to all those lovely places a little bit quicker, carrying more people and more, more freight. So that's cool.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: Wow. And so just take us into the.
What is it, what is a typical trip back then? What it, what it, what did it look like? So for example, what is, what is that, what does that look like for the, for those who are on an issue, because I'm. Obviously many of us have flown as passengers to somewhere, but yeah, obviously the, the experience for you as flight crew is a bit different. You don't, you don't just, you don't just go there and come back.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: So the, the workings of my job that side of it hasn't really changed too much.
So a short trip. So if I was to go, go to New York, that would normally be over. That would be three days in your calendar.
And that would involve reporting, meeting all the other, meeting the other pilot if it's a short trip.
So there'd be two pilots on a New York and if it was a Hong Kong originally it was four pilots. But let's say if you're doing a longer trip these days it more likely to be three pilots.
So you meet them an hour and a half before.
Then you had a whole load of paperwork prepared for you. And we went through the paperwork, make sure we were happy with the plan, the weathers, the notam. So any facilities that were not available and we'd agree the plan. And then we go and have a chat with the cabin crew, introduce ourselves, give them the bones of what's going to happen and then you make your way out to the airplane. You're out the airplane about an hour before departure and off you go. If there's two pilots, then you obviously stay in the flight deck for the duration. And apart from natural breaks, let's say, and if there are three or four pilots, then all the airplanes that we have certainly now have crew rest facilities. So you can go and lie down in a bunk, take it in turns to have a rest for the longer trips where you have more than two pilots and then you land and get transport to the hotel.
On a short trip it's normally a 24 hour or thereabouts break layover and you pick up the following day schedule to go home again through the night normally.
And if it's a longer trip, we normally get 48 hours. So you get two days off in Los Angeles or when we used to do Hong Kong, Hong Kong, San Francisco. So basically the longer trips we take three pilots and we normally have 48 hours off when you get back home. The shorter trips we have a minimum of two days off between going to work again and the longer trips it's normally three days off before going back to work again.
[00:12:28] Speaker B: Cool.
So that's a lot of hotels, a lot of travel, a lot of nightlife.
What's your favorite city and all the places you've been to in traveling around in the, in the. A 340, 300 or 600.
[00:12:42] Speaker A: I always, I always enjoyed Hong Kong and unfortunately we don't go there anymore.
Jo' Burg was always interesting.
So what you could do down there, maybe play a bit of golf, maybe go out and see a bit of nature.
Bit of red wine, bit of steak.
Yeah, yeah. I mean every you've.
The thing is with this job is that it takes a big chunk out of your life and you've got to try and make the most of your time down route as well. As just yearn for getting back home, if you know what I mean. So you try and make the most of wherever you are.
[00:13:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Because in any, in one sense, obviously when you're early in the piece that's probably very, very exciting and glamorous but over time you're away from it, you're away from home for a long time, aren't you?
[00:13:32] Speaker A: You are. Yes.
Yeah, yeah. It's, it's. We.
I mean the other thing is, is that, is that things have changed I think in the early. Before my time in the airline industry I think airlines were run by and for pilots and when I joined we still had a chief pilot who, who sort of looked after our interests. But that soon changed and, and the corporate world took over and it's all about as with most businesses, it's all about the bottom line. So they try and get as much work out of us as possible because we're expensive assets and there's always a bit of push and shove in terms of what we want to do and what the management want to do.
I think we're guaranteed a full time pilot off a full time pilot with Virgin Atlantic. I think it's guaranteed 10 days off a month now.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
Which sounds a lot. Until you realize how fatiguing it is when you are away and how you're often jet lag and you can't sleep when you're meant. When you think, when you're. In theory you can sleep but in reality you can't because you're jet lagged. So it's quite exhausting.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: It is. I mean I think it's a great industry and it's full of promises and there are some great opportunities, great rewards but I think you have to go in with your eyes open in terms of it is hard work and you will get very tired.
But I try and keep myself as fit as I can. I try and take the opportunity to relax when I can. Because you have to.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: Just, just bring us up to speed Carl, because I, I know this. What was the. So you, you when you were promoted to captain in Virgin Atlantic. When did that happen? And then bring us up to date to the, the current aircraft you're. You're flying for Virgin Atlantic.
[00:15:49] Speaker A: That was, that was nine years ago.
2006, May 16th was when I crossed over to the left hand seat, became a captain and initially it was on the 330, 300 which we still have a few of the two engine.
A 330 that was our first two engine airplane and actually we still have some of the 333 hundreds and they don't have crew rest, so that's. But.
And then I did a little bit of the 34600 as a captain and then I was very fortunate.
I actually did the first a350 course in 2019, the first line pilot course, which involved going back to Toulouse again, which was a shame. More.
More cheese and wine and steak.
[00:16:49] Speaker B: There's a theme here. And what's. Carl, what's. Just for those who aren't across all. The A350 is significant because the A350.
[00:16:59] Speaker A: Is probably the newest and best airliner flying at the moment.
It is amazingly automated, it is amazingly frugal in terms of how much fuel it burns for the. What it can carry.
So it really is state of the art, I think.
I think until the, the new Triple 7 comes out. It's, it's, it's up there, you know, it's, it's just about as good as you get.
And it was a bit weird actually because having done.
Because it was new to the company, brand new to the company and I was on the first course. The really funny thing was the instructors were learning at the same time. So the company instructors were learning about the airplane at the same time, they were instructing us.
So it was like everybody was learning together.
And after having done the requisite number of simulators and sectors and that was it, I was signed off. So here I was.
You know, basically the companies say, go and fly our 370 million pound airplane for us, please.
[00:18:12] Speaker B: Thank you very much. Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: Which is.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Just thinking Virgin Atlantic, obviously very famous for. Famous part owner in Richard Branson.
[00:18:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:25] Speaker B: Famous for celebrities and so forth. So you would have carried, I'm sure, a few, A few celebs in all those.
[00:18:33] Speaker A: Right, yeah.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: Now you, you, you, you disappointed us when you didn't fly any Royals about.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: I know, I know, I know. Well, I, I did, I did fly a semi royal and unfortunately we. We've just lost him. So I flew Aussie and Sharon.
[00:18:49] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
[00:18:50] Speaker A: The Osbor.
Yeah, I've flown.
Who's the house guy?
[00:19:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:19:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Anyway, Hugh Laurie bought stars, I'm sure. Oh, there's loads of them, but mainly on the la. They, they, they, they basically, if you go to and from la, you, you fly all sorts. I flew the Cardassians the other day.
[00:19:22] Speaker B: There you go, there you go. That's, there's your name drop. That's it.
[00:19:25] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:19:26] Speaker B: We'll do the podcast promo with the Kardashians on it than your ugly mug, mate.
[00:19:32] Speaker A: That's exactly. Yeah.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: We'll get more, more viewers that way.
So you're on the A350.
That's it must, that's chalk and cheese from an old Hercules, isn't it? Flying, flying that.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: I'll tell you, I'll tell you some of the highlights of this thing. Right, so this airplane, if you obviously, God forbid it ever happens, but if you had a depressurization, the airplane will, it does what's called an automatic emergency descent. So it will basically turn right a bit, three miles, it will close the throttles, it will descend itself down to the minimum safe altitude and if there's any terrain it will stop above the terrain. Otherwise it descends down 10,000ft where supposedly we'll wake up again and sort of say, what was that?
If you lose both engines, it maintains the autopilot and it fires up the APU for you.
It's just amazing.
Absolutely it, if you, it does everything pretty much you, you want an airplane to do.
It's, it's, it's in the words of the, the Airbus test pilots, when we were out there, they said that, you know this, this airplane has been designed by and for pilots. It's, it's an amazing bit of kit.
[00:21:00] Speaker B: Cool and, and can it. Yeah, we, we're obviously in the, in the world now full of AI and automation and, and, and those kind of can, could, can.
Do you think we'll see pilotless planes?
Will your job disappear down the track, do you think?
And can the A350 fly itself?
[00:21:25] Speaker A: So it's been demonstrated with test pilots on board the A350 has the ability to start up taxi takeoff and land and taxi back in again, shut itself down.
It has that ability.
We obviously, I'm sure that the test pilots have some special, special software and buttons to press and all the rest of it to make it do that, but it has that ability, I think going forward, I think, I mean this, I think there will be a push certainly for short haul to, and there's obviously discussions and studies going on about it within the aviation industry about single pilot operation and then eventually I guess pilotless, but I think that's a long way off and obviously, you know, it's all very well having the ability but if, if the passengers won't climb in the back of the airplane because they want pilots, then you know, that's going to be a while.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
Now we're getting towards the end of our time, brother.
You've got a few more years to Go, don't you? Because, because you have to re. You have to retire, don't you, at 65.
[00:22:39] Speaker A: So I have to retire at 65. So I have. Yes, that's right. So I have about just over two and a half years left now.
The, the other elephant in the room, I guess, is the, is the fact that there's a huge shortage of pilots.
So for all you know, some of the guys, I guess, listening to this will already know that the demand for pilots at the moment is outstripping the supply and is projected to do so for some time.
So whether the authorities or whether the airlines pressure the authorities into increasing the upper age limit is something that's being banded around now. It's not, I'm not saying it's something that I'll do. I don't know. I don't know whether I, you know, I'm on an 80% contract at the moment.
I aim to taper that down a little bit more. Yeah, maybe 65%, you know, next year.
So. Because it is, it is, is. It is a tire. It is a fatiguing job and long haul flying actually hasn't been around that long and, and we don't really know what it's doing to our bodies, but I don't think it's.
I don't think it's good.
So.
[00:24:12] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I think those of us even, you know, you know, I live in Australia and I do quite a lot of long, long haul flying mainly up to the UK a couple of times, and it's tiring. And anyone who's flown long haul with over multiple time zones knows how tiring is. So doing that literally for a living, you know, multiple times a month might. It makes sense that something.
It's not great for you, great for your physical.
I just want to pick up one thing you said, Carl, on the. You said there's a huge pilot shortage. Yet I know from some of our other conversations with other, other wood aspiring pilots at the beginning of that journey back in the 18, 1920s, that when you were back in, back in southeast London about to join the Royal folks, and there are a lot of pilots in Australia and other places where they've got their cpl, got the commercial pilot's license, but they're really struggling to get their first foot into an employed aviation role as a pilot.
How do those two things add up if there's a pilot shortage?
[00:25:27] Speaker A: I'm not sure.
I'm not au fait with the Australian market.
What I do know is that here in the UK that airlines are starting to advertise at fully paid cadet ships. So that is people with no flying experience whatsoever, straight into airlines, all their training paid for to turn them into airline pilots.
[00:25:56] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:25:57] Speaker A: And that is happening with several airlines within the uk.
I do appreciate that there will be some people who are, I don't think traps the right word, where they have experience.
Maybe on turbo props that aren't heavy enough or, you know, they don't have jet time, they don't have heavy aircraft time.
And I'm not. I don't know, I don't have the knowledge as to how you. How you open the doors.
However, if the, if the shortage is, as put it this way, these companies will not be starting fully paid cadetships if they didn't see a massive problem.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true.
[00:26:49] Speaker A: And. And therefore, even though they may seem disadvantaged at the moment, there will be a time when they are going to have to call on these guys with experience, but not totally relevant experience to fill those seats because they can't fly the airplanes or they can't expand their companies without filling the seats.
[00:27:15] Speaker B: It's interesting.
We'll try and find more about that when we speak to other guests. But I know one of the things that happens is that Australia, like, I think it's the States as well, there's a lot of flying training here due to the good weather for flying training. And it might, might be there's a disproportionate number of people, you know, getting their CPLs here that's bigger than certainly the Australian market can absorb. But anyway.
[00:27:39] Speaker A: Well, if it may be. I mean, it may be that, that, that I guess you have to go to where the work is, you know, there may be more opportunities overseas than staying in the Australian market.
[00:27:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Because it's very much a global industry, isn't it?
[00:27:54] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: So in the last few minutes, brother, what do you do outside of work when you're not flying and down? Eating. Eating cheese and drinking red wine.
[00:28:07] Speaker A: Drinking wine, yeah. Yeah.
Family, I guess, is. Takes up the majority of my time.
My lovely wife, as you know, likes to jet me away. It's like busman's holiday. I end up going on holidays. Yeah.
No, but I enjoy, I enjoy staying fit. I'll do something. I aim to do something three times a week in terms of the gym or go for a. Go cycling. I try and play golf when I can. Not often enough.
Just trying to get back into fishing. Actually, we're quite fortunate where we are, up in Northumberland to have wonderful countryside, so that's something I want to try and do more of. When I'm down route again, I use, everywhere we stay has a gym so I'll go to the gym every, every morning I'm down route and we go to some quite nice places so you know, we can hire bikes and cycle up and down the beachfront in Los Angeles or play some, go play some golf. I try and it Certainly on the two night stops where we get 48 hours, I'll try and get around to golfing with like minded, you know, pilots or whoever.
So as I say, you just got to make the most of the time away from home as well as back at home.
[00:29:27] Speaker B: Yeah, it's been really interesting talking to you because to create that perspective as, as someone who's done this for a long time. Not just, I mean the first few years, I'm sure it's amazing because you're going to different new cities for the first time, but it is a, it is a career. It is, it is, you know, it, it is in your, your case it's several decades of doing this. It does become, you know, it does become routine, it does become mundane and, and there are downsides. I think it's, it's important that you, that you understand that you create balance which is what you spoke to us about. And I've got two more questions for you, Carl.
Firstly, across your 40 years in the industry, the first roughly 20 years in the military and the second 20 years roughly in civilian flying, what are you most proud of?
[00:30:19] Speaker A: I'm quite a humble chap really, but I'm quite proud of the fact that in both my careers I have felt respected for my ability, achievements.
I, I, I used to enjoy instructing. I've been told that I'm, you know, a good instructor.
Yeah, I just, I just, I think just being good at my job and, and being respected for that is, is, makes me feel good.
[00:30:49] Speaker B: That's cool. And because it's not. But the one doesn't necessarily follow the other, doesn't it? Does it? You can, you could, you know, being a successful military pilot doesn't necessarily make you a successful civilian pilot.
[00:31:01] Speaker A: But, but I, but I think the, the nature of this, the military flying I did develops social skills because you know, we had, well, we had five people on the hook in a crew so there is a lot of interaction and then you know, and it's the, the team is definitely better than the, the sum of the individuals in a multi engineer plane. So yeah, that teaches you good stuff. And then you move on into civilian Flying. And interestingly, of course, as I say, there's only ever two people on the flight deck really at any time.
But again, it's just teamwork and obviously you've got to spend a lot of time sat next to each other. You could spend eight hours sat next to the same guy. So if you're a complete idiot, then somebody would probably have told me by.
[00:31:49] Speaker B: Now, well, I told you, but I don't care.
And the last question, Carl, what advice would you give to young men and women considering both specifically. Both considering. Sorry, specifically considering a role as a pilot, but also considering a role more broadly in the, in the aviation industry generally. What would you, what advice would you give?
[00:32:19] Speaker A: I think if there are real youngsters out there, if you can get into a, obviously an aviation oriented orientated cadet scheme, even if you haven't got a lot of money and you're trying to get into aviation, maybe the gliding club, you know, the gliding club's cheaper than the flying club and it gets, gets you into talking to like minded people. Also you may find a lot of, there are a lot of airline pilots, there are a lot of commercial pilots who glide in there in their own time. And you know, and you get to meet people and meet, as we all know, meeting people is the way ahead in terms of.
If piloting is not your thing, one of the things that does that, you do learn going from the military into civilian life, is that there are so many more people, so many more cogs in an organization. It's not just the pilots and the cabin crew and maybe more obviously the engineers.
You know, you've got the flight planners, you've got the people that write the software for the iPads that make all, everything work.
You've got the product design. So even if you're an artist or you lean towards the arts, the product design, the lounges, the seats, the livery, the logos, they all need design, they all need input.
So it's, it's, it's a great industry and it's a, it's a very broad industry.
So I think there's something for everybody.
[00:33:54] Speaker B: Brilliant. Thank you, Carl. Thank you for so much for giving us, giving us your time. Although I've been your brother for all of my life, even I've, I've, I've learned a few things from that conversation. Some not some, some I'd forgotten, some I never knew.
So.
Excuse me, my, my frog in my throat's growing. But no, it's been, it's been really lovely to, to, to share your 40 plus years as a pilot in the military and in in the civil aviation. And yeah, thanks so much for your time on Sky Careers. Love love.
We'll probably have you back to get some more as well.
[00:34:33] Speaker A: Okie doke.
Great to see you.
[00:34:36] Speaker B: Thanks bro. See ya. Thanks Carl.
[00:34:37] Speaker A: See you.
[00:34:38] Speaker B: Thank you very much. Bye.
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